Bidding Work with No Word Count Given

[Paul Plack]

I just got the automated notice that my year is nearly up with voices.com, and while I have made enough money through them to cover my fee many times over, I'm electing not to renew, because...

A vast majority of jobs posted do not include word count, or other indication of length. This would be a very easy number to provide for any client with a script created in any word processor.

If I include time spent landing the jobs in my assessment of ROI, this is a deal-killer. The need to create disclaimers of how my bid is based on assumptions and could change with other lengths, blah blah blah, is (a) a waste of time, and (b) a poor start to a client relationship.

The additional communication steps required in such a transaction are fine if you're not doing much work and have time to kill. Is voices.com trying to cater to newbies?

Am I missing something, or being too hasty? If you're with voices.com, how do you deal with this issue?

[Jon Morss]

Paul,

You have made some very valid points, but the way I deal with it is to not worry about it. The system is what it is. I think Stephanie and the rest at Voices.com are very responsive to suggestions and input. I would suggest that you provide yours to them if you have not done so already. But, I look at a site like Voices.com as not a means to and end, but rather another tool in my VO arsenal. I continue to look and research other avenues to find VO work and if I land a gig with Voices from time to time then great. At this stage, I would not bet the farm on the P2P sites, although some seem to have found the magic formula and book on a regular basis on them. The interesting thing is that there seems to be more and more established VO talent from the LA and NY markets popping up on these sites which to me that is an indicator of what is happening in the VO world way beyond a site like Voices.com.

If you think it is in your best interest to move away from the site, then do what you need to do for you. For me, I like the site, I like the folks that run it and I like the opportunity to audition on a regular basis. When my subscription is up next year, if I'm not booking on a regular basis elsewhere, I will certainly be signing up again.

Good luck.

[Paul Plack]

You have made some very valid points, but the way I deal with it is to not worry about it...

Jon, could you perhaps be more specific? If you see a posting needing narration for a product demo, a word count of zero, and no other indication of length, what do you quote for the job, and how do you set the client expectation for a cost which could vary widely once you find out?

Or, do you just quote $100, and take the loss when it turns out to be 30 minutes of finished audio?

[jsgilbert]

Interesting thread. I think the reason there are more "established" L.A. and NY talent enrolling in online casting services simply refers to increased competition and diminishing returns. Lately it seems the only SAG national commercial work I get to read for is sent via Voicebank and may have as many as 2,000 people auditioning for it. I know individuals who made $100,000+ per year for years who are now struggling to make $25,000. Nature of the beast.

I can also ell you that there has been and continues to be a fairly strong community of SAG/ AFTRA actors on the internet casting sites using pseudonyms. Many talk a good game, but quite a few are reading for relatively low paying gigs.

As for the job postings, word count, etc. - I think that quite a few of the job psters want to obfuscate the work. I have spoken to some actors who feel they wer railroaded into accepting work that was alledgedly supposed to be one thng and turns out to be another. I don't consider my audition and "bid" to be a firm covenant. It's important that I endeavor to get as much information as possible before the gig. I suppose I've been fairly lucky (or perhaps it's due to the particular auditions I choose to do) because I have only had a smattering of wonky situations. Only once did I get involved with the recording process before I realized I had to back out. It was hard to do, but I think better safe than sorry. There are some absolutely incredible people who cast online and treat talent well and I hope they continue to grow and prosper. There are also more than just a few who know what desperation may drive someone to do. What is it they say about nobody can be a victim without giving permission?

Auditions that feature broad pay swings, such as the many on Vocies.com of $100-$250, will almost always get the lower end of the spectrum. There is a hell of a difference working for $250 for a spot vs. $100. Also, for those v.o.talents that work a considerable amount, it's rare to getonto one of those auditins where you're less than number 100. And yes, I know that sometimes the client or casting director may review 200 people for that $100 job, it's just that neither the pay scale nor the concept of throwing spaghetti against the wall appeals to me much.

Numerous auditions are being handled via Voicebank in conjunction with talent agents across the country. It's possible that tomorrows business model for casting is buried somewhere here.

SAG/ AFTRA are working on thier own online casting programs, primarily on-came3ra at the moment and they are banking that they will eventually dominate online casting. One thing I am fairly certain of is that all things are going web and while there isn't a fully viable business model right now for online voice casting, eventually there will be and we will see the bulk of auditioning being handled online.

To what extent commoditization of voiceover continues to proliferate is hard to say. Currently though it seems there is no shortage of people willing to hollar for a dollar.

[judniven.com]

Paul, thanks for this thread..I just re-newed my voices subscription, but like Jon said, it's just one tool of many, and nothing I rely on....but getting back to your point, I agree and I think you just have to be careful with the jobs you audition for..for example there is a job on there as we speak....

• Budget$500 - $750
• Script & Instructions
• Job Description BRITISH (preferred) OR NORTH AMERICAN ACCENT required for a Historical Fiction. 114,000 words. Male. There are some hawaiian phrases and expressions so someone familiar with this language would be a benefit.
  Please send a sample reading of the attached book. Chapter One begins on page 10 of the attachment.

REALLY???? Do they really think they are going to get an audiobook with this kind of content for 500-750??REALLY?????....so rather than replying and trying to explain your rates...DON'T BOTHER...I didn't. Now who's to say if you put an offer in your proposal letter that it might go further, but I think that the BUDGET they are showing, should be more reflective of what they are looking for and not just a random number they can select from a pull down menu. Again, thanks, and as Jon also said, Stephanie would be quite open to hearing about this, so I plan on shooting her an email about it.....

[Jon Morss]

Jon, could you perhaps be more specific? If you see a posting needing narration for a product demo, a word count of zero, and no other indication of length, what do you quote for the job, and how do you set the client expectation for a cost which could vary widely once you find out?

Or, do you just quote $100, and take the loss when it turns out to be 30 minutes of finished audio?

I agree that it would be nice if the word count was listed, and with word or OpenOffice Text it is a simple as a mouse click. However, unless this is changed on the posting I just go with what they provide. If they provide the full script, I do the word count myself. But if the posting is way to vague, I just by-pass it. That is, If I see a posting for a gig and there is no indication as to the length and I can not tell if the spot will be a 100 word or a 1000 word project, I just delete it. Hence, I don't worry about it. If the spot does look interesting and the initial copy seems like something that I wish to read, then I will quote near the top of the range with a note that the quote is based on the info provided and may change as more info is obtained. They have the option to take it or leave.

Unless a spot specifically has the rate set to $100, I would not quote that low especially a spot does not have all of the specs. I tend to quote on the high end of the rate.


JS - You are correct. I just attended an On Camera workshop event in your home town of San Fran with Award Winning Actress/Teacher Judy Kain, Casting Director Francene Selkirk, and Career Coach Mary Mackey held at Nancy Hayes Casting and Francene said she casts nearly exclusively via online actor databases such as Actor Access. They still want the actor to have an agent, but that is not required. If an On Camera actor wants to get work, then they better be listed at a site like Actor Access with head shots and a video demo. The On Camera arena has certainly jumped into online casting and it seems to be working for them.

[Paul Plack]

...but I think that the BUDGET they are showing, should be more reflective of what they are looking for and not just a random number they can select from a pull down menu...

Actually, clients are now allowed to enter a specific number, not just a range. Few are doing so, but some are.

I would think there is considerable incentive on the client side to get realistic bids, especially if there are going to be 100+ to wade through. Why hear ten people you like, then find out when it's time to award the work that none of them will do the work for the amount quoted, because you didn't provide enough info?

Or, is the box for word count just hidden on the client-side form in a manner that makes it tough to use?

I'm in an unusual circumstance, I guess. I have a "deal with the devil," a contract that provides me work five days a week, and provides enough of a living to allow me the luxury of working out of my home studio even if nothing else comes in. My goal in P2P is to supplement that base with sporadic but higher-rate work. If it takes me 10 minutes or more to determine (a) is this a real job? ...and (b) is this worth my time? ...it doesn't work. Likewise, if a high percentage of my auditions turn out to be for jobs that were misrepresented, I've wasted too much time.

As for the "$100-250" category, I've elected to see them in my e-mail alerts, but rarely bid on one, because they're likely to go for $100, if not less. But once in a while there's a gem there, so I at least look.

There was one recently which posted 30 minutes of audio, a chapter in a training course of some kind, in the $500-750 range. When I read the details, it was 27 30-minute chapters for that rate, clearly a ruse to defeat the site's $100 minimum. ($750 divided by 27 = $27.78 for each 30-minute job...and that's the top of the range.)

[Paul Plack]

... I think that quite a few of the job psters want to obfuscate the work...I don't consider my audition and "bid" to be a firm covenant. It's important that I endeavor to get as much information as possible before the gig...

I would think that many of the "0" word count postings were just fishing expeditions, without scripts ready to go, or willful misrepresentation, but they're almost all "0" currently, and I know some are real.

If I put time into trying to read between the lines on all these jobs, and land a low percentage of them anyway, it doesn't pencil out, even for us non-union guys.

A big clump of work gets posted on voices.com starting around 9am Eastern each day, presumably when staff arrives for the day in Toronto and reviews client requests. That's 7am here in the Rockies. I have to try to warm up while I decide which two or three are worth my time to audition for by 8am, so I have a reasonable chance at being heard. Doesn't leave much time for research.

The thing I don't get is, the client would probably get 100 bids even if he was honest about length. 100 desperate people, maybe, but that's why he's trolling the bottom, right? Anyone else he gets through obfuscation won't actually do the work within his budget, so why waste the time on both ends?

[JoeActor]

Paul - thanks for starting this interesting thread.

I bid on very few in the $100-250 range, but I have opted to see them.

As for the word count, I'll bid based on my best guess given the information provided.
To cover all the bases, my quote usually contains a phrase like "Final pricing based on full project specifications."

That way if they come up with something that is unreasonable for the amount I originally bid, I can send them an updated bid based on their final specs. At that point, they either agree and we move forward, or they don't and I'm out. I try not to nickle-and-dime them, and I expect the same.

One client that hired me recently told me that my quote was higher than the other talent he was using, but he was ok with it because of the quality of the work. That's a good feeling, and certainly reinforces the behavior to price myself at what I believe I am worth.

Auditions: Set 'em, and Forget 'em,
Joe

[jsgilbert]

One little note. An old client of mine had told me "You're asking for a bit more than I'm used to paying, but it's okay..." Later in he admitted he said that to everyone. I actually found out I was one of the lower paid talents he used.

One other time, I was brought in to "redo" a voiceover for someone. The talent they brought in originally, they said was terrible. About a week later I ran into an aquaintance who spouted on about a job he had done where the client loved, loved, loved him. Yes, you guessed it, it was the job I replaced him on.

Of course, it's made me wonder if I've ever left a job thinking I did well, all the while the client was trying to figue out who he could get to replace me.

just a little more food for thought.