Message to up-and-comers...

[Diane Havens]

I, too, have a stage background.

Way back when, I took an acting workshop with Joan Allen, THE Joan Allen, when I was at NIU. I worked on a show or two with her as well. It was a humbling experience. She stood out from the rest of us, seemingly effortlessly. I learned much from her, just by working with her. It raises the bar. It makes you better. You draw off their energy; you pick up their authenticity. If you can't do that, you know you don't have it. As much as you may enjoy it. If you don't know, someone should tell you.

Preferably gently.

[Steve Cotsalas]

Originally Posted by SilverSurfer3001

Colin - I'm not so sure that JS is being negative so much as he is being real.

(Caveat - I am in no way attempting to speaking for Mr Gilbert; the man is imminently qualified to do that for himself)

I think that one thing that is incredibly dangerous about entering into this bidniss is that if you read a few books about how "you too can become independently wealthy - all it takes is a good voice and a lot of persistence" you can easily believe it.

I bought into that mentality quite readily. I have a decent voice. There are many many many more out ther who have voices better than mine who will never even think of cracking open a mic, There are folks whose voice isn't nearly as good as mine who are making piles of money doing the very thing that I aspire to do. No bitternes, anger, resentment at all - just keeping it real...

There is an X-Factor: An intangible that cannot be seen or described. But it's there, and people know it when they hear it. To say with absolute assurity - as so many of the "get-rich-quick-and-work-20-minutes-a-day" VO books do - that everybody can do this thang called voicework, is leading many a sheep down the primrose path straight to the slaughterhouses.

I would prefer for someone to be bluntly honest about my product, rather than spout flowery words of sunshine and light without actually addressing the aspects of my delivery that need work.

And sometimes that means telling people that they have neither the chops nor the fortitude necessary to make a success of this business.

My personal experience with Mr Gilbert is that he has been overwhelmingly kind with is encouragement and absolutely free with his advice on how to tweak my delivery. He offers a fount of knowledge fortified by years of experience in the trenches, and his disdain for VO Coaches who will gladly pee on your leg and tell you that it's raining is quite refreshing. He has given me a few pointers ( I would love to get more, but I feel like I've allready bothered him too much as it is) that are helping me make my way into being competitive. I truly belive that with his pointers to guide me, when I get back in the trenches again in a few weeks, I will be able to make a sizable splash in my local market, and hopefully springboard into some national (or at least regional) stuff.

His marketing advice is also refreshingly blunt. It really doesn't matter how beautifully ornate your website and business cards are if no one of any import is going there. The only way to do that is drive them there. The only way to do that is through good old fashioned flesh pressing by making friends and doing favours. I've taken that advice to heart as well, and hope to start recouping some rewards from thos efforts soon.

At worst it means that I now have some new friends. And having friends is never a bad thing, even if they can't do a thing in the world for you.

I find that the terms negativity and realism are often used interchangably. They aren't the same and shouldn't be treated as such.


That isn't to say, Mr Campbell, that your initial post did not make some dang fine points. It is always important to know what you are capable of, and to never stop beliveing in yourself. But I think what JS was saying is that sometimes people thnk that they are someone thay aren't. Those are the ones who try and try and try and genuinely try to make it, but while they think they have the tools for the trade, they really don't. Sometimes the electronics repairguy needs to realise that he's really not cut out to do that kinda work when he really is better with a chisel and a blowtorch. If the equipment isn't right, then you need to go where that equipment is better suited - thus the banging your head against the wall comment.


I'm sorry of that sounded preachy: It is certainly not my intention to do that. I just get kinda caught up sometimes.

"I find that the terms negativity and realism are often used interchangably. They aren't the same and shouldn't be treated as such."

Exactly.

Colin,
Your story of overcoming your legal blindness is inspiring, and I enjoy reading your posts, as well as appreciate your time & energy spent as a moderator at VOsavvy.You have certainly thrown yourself into it(I recall a post where you were upset about smartcast, saying that you have never worked harder at anything in your life..that stuck with me, as I'm sure with others,because we all love this VO business, and we all want to succeed.)
So, JS throws some cold water on the "here we ride off into the sunset VO'ing our way to fame & fortune" mentality....so what?
A dose of reality is good for the soul, and good for your wallet.Once you acknowledge that failure is a possibility, the truly motivated(regardless of the business type), do everything possible to stay out of the poorhouse. Frankly, realism for me is a great motivator.It keeps me grounded, and keeps me on the phone calling contacts, directors, agents, etc.,instead of watching a screen for a lead.

Negativity comes from the gutless in life who condemn other's dreams & aspirations because they live their lives in fear, and don't want to see others succeed, thus validating their negativity.We all have that type in our lives. I've never read that in any of Gilbert's posts.

Realism is a swift kick in the pants, a punch to the gut, a mentality that says while you need to work your ass off and do everything right, you need to look objectively at your progress. And if there is none, then maybe you should stop hitting your head against the wall,beating a dead horse,etc.,and move on to something else..unless you're happy stagnating & running in place.
We all ask for reality when we want a critique of our reads or demo's.Whenever I've posted a read and in nice terms been told that my read "sucked"or was off the mark, I was motivated to do better.

Was JS(and what does that stand for anyway?!) a little harsh in his post?
Maybe.but it still doesn't change the fact that this business(aren't they all?) is harsh, and those who enter it starry eyed,untrained & naive are in for a rude awakening.
just my 2 cents.

[Diane Havens]

We should also appreciate the boards that allow free and open exchange of ideas and opinions for this same reason.

Before making a decision to market yourself through any voice site, make sure you have a realistic expectation of your success with the site. Buyer beware. Make sure they are providing the kinds of leads that fit your niche. Listen carefully to those who succeed in these places and those who don't. You may find a clue there as to how to better market your own sound, your own style. Look at VO trends, what kinds of voices are hot now, delivery styles, etc. And what your competition in your niche will be there -- listen to other demos, and compare.

When the music is written for the piccolo, and a cellist shows up, the skill of the musician doesn't matter. Find music written for the cello, and you may have a shot.

Know your voice. Know the market. Very few can do it all.

[Allen Brown]

Originally Posted by DBHavens

We should also appreciate the boards that allow free and open exchange of ideas and opinions for this same reason.

Diane,

You beat me to it. A moment of gratitude.

This board is starting to read like the unmentionable board we all remember. (The board whose name may not be spoken lest the lawyers appear.)

It is so refreshing to again read ideas, theories and pholosophies from fellow travelers as we once did, without the fear of losing one of our marketing tools.

I laughingly read, on the "cleansed" board, requests for simple guidance that was covered in depth, detail and, sometimes, ad nauseum, by the group of pros and ams who now opine here and elsewhere.

While the wheel is being reinvented at our previous forum, it's nice to see many of us rolling along as usual.

To free expression!

[Steve Cotsalas]

Originally Posted by Colin Campbell

When someone says to me they want to get into VO, all of the toil and rejection flashes through my mind and I just shake my head. I think to myself "you'll never make it." But for ME, I guess I an optimist. Which is funny because in everything ELSE in life, I've been told I'm a very negative person. But, for some reason when it comes to this, I think I can do it. I've made such slow but very steady progress. Now jobs will come along that I didn't even solicit. Considering how things were two years ago, I'm on cloud nine. There was a time when I said to my wife.... "I think I'm gonna give up." She told me very convincingly not to. It was after that that things started picking up. At my day job, they noticed my extra-circular activity and moved me from IT back into Production which saved my paycheck from budget cuts. Then the flood gates opened. Local clients, auditions won through Internet venues, etc. OK, not a full time income yet but I can see the light, I can feel it coming. Maybe not until retirement age but SOME DAY. Where I've come to was from persistence and not listening to negatives which prompted my post above.

Colin,
I didn't read this earlier post.mea culpa.
Obviously, you GET the idea of reality in VO.
I'm glad your wife was there to back you up when it seemed hopeless.
We all need that reinforcement from friends & family.

[SilverSurfer3001]

But that's just the thing... nothing JS has said in any way detracts from that.

All that he's been saying is that if you aren't getting results - and you're really not doing a lot to change that except wonder why you aren't getting work, you need to re-examine your methods. If I am trying your hardest and it doesn't fit with the reality actually being self-sufficient, then maybe it's time to examine the tools that God did give me and use them to best of my ability.

That's a whole different ball game from being down and questioning reality: I think we've all been there. That's exactly where the encouragement of friends and family comes in. Because if we are using our talents and abilities to their best potential, it's inevitable thatdoubt, discouragement and depair will plague us many times during our journey. That's why we cultivate friendships. Even if our friends don't have anything of any "material worth" to offer, they are an immense gift when we really need the encouragement - especially those who are our friends despite ourselves and not just because there may be some business or personal gain to be gotten from them.

JS' comment about bangng one's head is just what it is. A statement of fact. If we find ourselves at a wall, and we haven't the tools necessary to overcome those walls (doors, windows, hammers and chisels, hacksaws, etc), we sure ain't gonna get past it by repeatedly hitting it (isn't that definition of insanity, BTW?). It's kinda like wrestling with a pig - you're both gonna get muddy,but only one of you is gonna enjoy it.

Colin, I apreciate your encouragement, and frankly it was posted at a really great time for me. Thanks for that.

But I also need to know hat the reality of any coin is that it has two sides.

Kinda like Casey Kasem useta say: Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars.

I need to dream big, but I need tp prepare for other potentialities. That's a very valid reality when we get to a certain age where laying out the job market to pusue the journey for extended periods of time may make us completly and utterly unemployable. MOst businesses - heck most reglar people don't understand the work that goes into pursuing that career choice, butr C'est la vie. Heck my wife nearly choked on her dinner when I brought up the Plato project and todl her that the going "quailty" quote would be in the 5 figures rather that the upper 3 figurs that they were looking for. Her response? "It's just reading a book. Aren't you kinda overvaluing that talent?" Now if our spouses think that way, imagine how a potential employer will reposnd that you've taken five years off your career life to "read for money:" It really doesn't bode well for a happy symbiotic relationship with those employers.

I think that's all he was tryng to say - and I trust that he will correct me if I'm wrong. At last that's what I took from that comment.

[Lee Gordon]

The real irony of this thread is one of the reasons we have all convened here to carry on our frank discussions is that the new Voice123 board has gone so far to eliminate negativity that they now delete virtually anything that isn't nurturing, uplifting and hopeful, even when what would be more useful to a poster -- particularly a newbie -- is frankness and openness, even if the truth is less than 100% positive.

[JoeActor]

Originally Posted by Lee Gordon

The real irony of this thread is one of the reasons we have all convened here to carry on our frank discussions is that the new Voice123 board has gone so far to eliminate negativity that they now delete virtually anything that isn't nurturing, uplifting and hopeful, even when what would be more useful to a poster -- particularly a newbie -- is frankness and openness, even if the truth is less than 100% positive.

THIS!

100% agreement, Lee...

Great thread all - I really enjoy a spirited debate. All parties have nuggets of gold in the replies.

Joe J Thomas
www.JoeActor.com

[jsgilbert]

Wow. I start questioning if I am that "negative" guy and then I read these responses and I think "who cares if I am".

Thanks for the very kind words and interpretations.

I suppose it's all in how one sees things.

The only thing I would argue against in Jody's post is that it's not about me or anyone, teaacher, coach, or neighborhood bartender to tell another person that THEY don't have what it takes. This is the personal journey, which can change on any given day for a myriad of reasons.

Just as it is not my place to tell someone they can't or won't make it, it's also not anyone's place to brainwash or convince people that against all odds they might. Not when that comes in the form of pressuring people to take the next class, the next phone session or to read the next book or attend the next seminar and there is no indication that tomorrow will hold anymore promise for a career in this industry.

It's amazing how much my single purposeful message, which is realatively unaultered seems to drive a few people so crazy. It's nice to have a belief system, doctrines and rules to live by, but when it is so easy to become "stupid" when you are bit by the acting bug, (Forgive my potential poor choice of words, but I've been there and I have no better way to describe it) you often are so caught up in the adrenaline and excitement that it's hard to make wise decisions.

And let's face it, I've tried being the ncie guy with the nice posts. In fact there have been some comments with regards to posts I have made lately on another site that are questioning if I have changed my meds or had a lobotomy.

As I have said before, being effective is what I prefer to be. And as I have mentioned, with all of the fat, juicy carrots being dangled in front of people with regards to this industry and the very little attention paid to the pitfalls and problems, all I hope to do is get someone to pay a little more attention to their actions and consequences. For their own sake and not necessarily for mine. Although, if everyone in this industry abided by strong morals and convictions, I might be a little less hesitant to tell people I'm a "voice actor" when I'm at a party.

So if it is indeed negative to sugggest that someone have a sense of how they will pay the rent or put groceries on the table or suggest that loved ones may resent supporting thier acting habit after the third year and also suggest that actors put together business plans and investigate and research all avenues for increasing their potenital for making it in this business, it is based on a different understanding of what this business can do to some people.

The arguments I seem to hear are always the same sort of rhetoric. Imperical evidence at best and focused on an extrme minority. Odd how in one breath an individual meniions it's okay to earn small amounts of money and in the other breath sites 2 or 3 of the industry's top earners as their idols.

There are some who seek part time income, study to overcome phobias or to be better spokespeople for their businesses or forother personal reasons, but if the bulk of the folks in this busness weren't looking to make "big money", then why is it that every speaker at last year's Voice 2007 mentions making "bags of money" or earning the big bucks. In fact almost every talk from every speaker has centered on the big money that can be earned while having fun. It's the focus of all the articles and the center of many discussions.


While Colin may not be an icon, he can be an inspiration to those of us who have additional issues, handicaps or struggles. Honestly, I don't see how that really fits into my message and negates it any way.

Perhaps the message shouldn't necessarily be "The nicest thing about banging one's head against the wall is stopping", but "When it's no longer fun, I'm done" (perhaps to an extent)

By the way, I'm not talkig about that self-doubt that we all get or the ocassional (someitmes more than ocassional) sense of lack of self-esteem. Even those who are making the big bucks, I mean the real big bucks, have days when it's hard to get our of bed.

But how many actors approcah this industry from any level of practicality. Do you have a budget? Do you understand some of the expenses you may incur as a result of attempting to be a voice-over? What are your expectations? Are they remotely realistic? Are you okay living without a regular paycheck and in many cases no pension or health insurance? Do you actually know what a good demo should sound like, or are you going to take a teacher's word for it?

I am not trying to stop anybody from grabbing the brass ring and if riding the merry go round for the 3,000th time without getting one ring is reward in itself, then more power to you.

The truth of the matter Colin is that my posts probably aren't intended for you. They are intended to reach the 90% of the people that will come to this forum and simply read and perhaps a few of the 9% that participate. And somehow in my deepest parts of negativity I seem to have been some form of "positive" to Jody.

I am tired of individuals questioning my motives and defending myself and I will not expend any energy on this in the future. I have significantly impacted numerous industries by my participation. It's probably an excellant reason why there aren't more people out here challenging the mass ideology. The simple honest answer is that it makes no sense. I have absolutely nothing to gain by making my opinions known here or elsewhere on the internet and yet I still do so. In fact, I am certain that it has hurt me and cost me work. I know for a fact that many people who hire talent troll these sites and when they hear people calling me negative and questioning my motives, especially when things are taken out of context, it hurts my chances for getting hired.

And for those of you tossing bricks. Remember that many of you live in very glass houses.

Oh and to Jody and anyone else. If I have the time, I am happy to help. So please don't think you are buggin me, I welcome communication. And if the fact that I don't charge money bothers anyone, then make a contribution to your favorite charity.

[Jon Morss]

I second what Joe said.

JS- I personally dig what you have to say and really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and wisdom. Maybe in the past I have not expressed myself that way, but I truly do appreciate and respect your talents, experience and thoughts. Its a great balance. Keep 'em coming bud.

Jon