Defining "Demos" for Online Work

[Bret Brizzee]

Hi Bob,

I know you speak frequently on the unparalleled importance of a good demo, especially when initiating a search for representation in a competitive market.

As a VO newbie, all my auditions have been recorded at home. I know for a fact that I won't be pursuing the creation of any sort of master demo for months (or even years). Even still, I take great pleasure in recording auditions for leads from Voices.com and other, community-based websites.

Sometimes -- on the off chance that someone is interested in my services -- people ask to hear my demo. Now, what I want to tell them is, "Sorry, I won't be creating a demo for awhile, because I want to make the best possible impression!" At the same time, I know that this potential work could be fodder for my future demo... if only they could hear a snippet of my past work.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but creating a brilliant demo is specifically necessary when you're marketing yourself in the big leagues. If I'm not marketing myself at all (outside of, say, a community-vo website, or Voices.com...yet), is it safe to post some minor bits and segments from my previous experiences? One of Voices.com's strong-points is its demo playback interface.

Basically, the question is this: Am I limiting my future opportunities by posting some varied recordings to my Voices profile? Should I stick solely to custom auditions and rid my profile of demos?

Thanks for your insight!

Bret

[Bob Bergen]

Hi Bret!

It's really hard for me to answer this without hearing your work. And just because you've worked doesn't mean that work belongs on a demo. Only the best goes on the demo.

What sites like this one, and Voice123 have done is reinvent the wheel a bit. In the old days (which wasn't that long ago) your final step in your VO journey/training was to make the demo. Now, with online VO sites people are auditioning before having a competitive demo. And many are posting demos for critique that shouldn't be shared because the actors aren't ready. You never know who is listening. Even when asking for an opinion on a demo in progress, you have no way of knowing if a major buyer is listening, too. That demo is out there.

I hear everyday of my life from actors who are told from some perspective buyer that if they JUST had a demo they'd hire them. Baloney! If that were the case everyone with a demo would get hired every day! If you have a demo, you'll be considered for a possible job. If your demo (or you) aren't brilliant, you'll probably never work for that buyer, ever.

So-are you ready for a demo?? If not, why are you sending out auditions??? And if you are ready for a demo, why haven't you made one??????

BB

[Julie Williams]

Hi Bob,
If a talent is waiting to product his/her first demo, how can they submit demos on voice123 and voices.com?

BTW, Brett, A demo isn't a resume of "what you've done" it's a representation of "what you can do."

[Bret Brizzee]

Thanks for the reply, Bob! This sort of advice is critically invaluable.

Originally Posted by Bob Bergen

It's really hard for me to answer this without hearing your work. And just because you've worked doesn't mean that work belongs on a demo. Only the best goes on the demo.

Of course! I would avoid putting 99.99% of my work (paid or otherwise) on a demo. The stuff I have now is an accurate representation of an amateur, which is not the image I want to be presenting.

Originally Posted by Bob Bergen

What sites like this one, and Voice123 have done is reinvent the wheel a bit. In the old days (which wasn't that long ago) your final step in your VO journey/training was to make the demo. Now, with online VO sites people are auditioning before having a competitive demo. And many are posting demos for critique that shouldn't be shared because the actors aren't ready. You never know who is listening. Even when asking for an opinion on a demo in progress, you have no way of knowing if a major buyer is listening, too. That demo is out there.

That's scary stuff. Is the aspiring voice-over artist limited, then, to discussing work and training in-person or over the telephone? Should I remove my "Demo of the Day" postings from the forums? I've just removed all the sound-bytes previously on my Voices.com page.

Originally Posted by Bob Bergen

So-are you ready for a demo?? If not, why are you sending out auditions??? And if you are ready for a demo, why haven't you made one??????

I suppose I was a little confused by the nature of demos. I thought they were composed of the talent's best previous work (demonstrating market-ready versatility). This lack of understanding is really my fault; I should have made more of an effort to fully realize the essence and origin of demos.

Why am I sending out auditions? Honestly, to get enough work to save up for my four favorite workshops (yours and Julie's included)! I know, I know. I should be paying my dues and working diligently in other arenas to pay for this... but I've caught two leads so far. It's addictive! Getting even a sliver of VO work is invigorating. I have been voraciously devouring all the "experience" I can find for more than a year. Workshops (when available), workshop CDs, books, words of wisdom from the wizards here, speech and voice coaches, vocal professional lessons (when reasonably affordable), and Voices.com podcasts. It's still not enough!

Are the paradigms of such sites as RadioDaddy and VoiceActingAlliance - where aspiring talent run to record large quantities of material without pay and for experience only - deluded? Should I make it a point to avoid such establishments if I truly wish to pursue a career in VO?

Originally Posted by Julie Williams

BTW, Brett, A demo isn't a resume of "what you've done" it's a representation of "what you can do."

That helps to clear things up, Julie! In that case, I suppose it's safe for me to "borrow" scripts from daily life (radio, television, Internet) and start practicing. It appears as though the best way to go about this would be to amass a massive library of "practice", and then contact a professional VO "consultant" or coach for one-on-one advice and guidance.

You guys rock! Much appreciated!

Bret

[Bob Bergen]

Hey bud!

First off, let me start be saying it sounds like you have that "fire and drive" that is needed for success in the VO field. Good for you!!!!!

As for the demo, it's not uncommon for an established voice actor to re-record a radio or TV commercial they did to be used on their demo. Often times a spot is overproduced, or the actor finds they weren't directed to the fullest potential.

The following is from the VO/FAQ page from my website:

Q: What makes a good commercial demo?
A: A good commercial demo moves fast, and leaves the listener asking for more. Your commercial demo is a montage of different commercial spots. But you don't put the entire spots down. Since commercials are either 30 or 60 seconds this would make for a very long demo. Just put a piece of each spot on your demo. Your demo producer will help you with the order and length of each spot. Try not to have a lot of intro and exit music between spots. It should be voice, attached to voice, attached to voice. Each byte shows off a different side of "you". If you plan to have an animation track on your CD, stay away from character voices on your commercial track. In a minute and a half, you want to show the listener the different styles of commercial reads you do well. After hearing your commercial demo, the listener should be able to "type" you. That means they should be able to know what "types" of commercials you'd be right for. If you sell cars are you a Jeep or Lincoln Towncar? Are you fast food or upscale restaurants? Are you acne medicine or Dove soap? Are you a mom, dad, son or daughter? Your personality needs to come through. Oh - and NEVER have your picture on your demo cover. You might have a baby face but a voice like James Earl Jones! Your picture on your CD gives someone a chance to type you the wrong way without ever hearing your voice.
Q: Do I get material for my demo from the demo producer?
A: I wouldn't!! You never know how many other actors have used the same material or copy. Gather your own. You can get copy from magazines, or from TV and radio . You know your style better then any producer. You'll probably use 10-15 pieces of copy for your commercial demo. But you may go through dozens before finding the perfect spots.
Q: What does the demo producer actually do?
A: The demo producer directs your read, then adds the proper music and sound effects and edits down the finished product.
Q: How often do I update my commercial demo?
A: This can vary. Since you've never worked in voice-over, your first demo will consist of spots done just for the demo. However, they need to sound like real spots. As you work you'll eventually remove the "demo" spots and replace them with real spots you've done. Eventually your demo will just consist of your real work. Once your demo consists of real work you'll notice a variety in sound quality from spot to spot. This is because they all came from different sources. You might get one spot from a CD, one from a tape, one from your VCR, etc. You should strive for that same variety in sound from your very first demo! This will give the listener the illusion that the spots might be from air and actually makes the actor sound more versatile. If your demo has the same consistent sound from beginning to end, it will have what I call that "demo" sound. Meaning it's over produced, and none of the spots sound real. One of the things I like about Bill Holmes' demos is he strives to make each spot sound real, and has that variety throughout the demo to make it competitive.

[Jon Morss]

Great topic regarding demo creation. This is really interesting stuff.

Bob - Something that really stood out for me was your statement:

"And many are posting demos for critique that shouldn't be shared because the actors aren't ready. You never know who is listening. Even when asking for an opinion on a demo in progress, you have no way of knowing if a major buyer is listening, too. That demo is out there."

I have actually wondered about this, usually just after I have pressed submit. Your statement has pretty much confirmed my uneasiness to post on a forum. At times I think I get caught up in the whole “Hey Mom, look what I did” mentality and looking for some reassurance I’m going in the right direction. Another bad idea on my part. One thing I would add to this, and something Julie mentioned in her workshop, is that you have to consider the source of who is posting comments for the critique on a forum. A comment from me would certainly not weigh nearly as much as from someone like yourself that has years of experience. The best option, as I see it now after your comments and those by Julie as well as others in the VO business, is to contact a coach or VO teacher and get their perspective and assistance. You get less exposure and the information is from professional source.

Also, I have seen the VO/FAQ page on your website and I think this is invaluable information. I will certainly be following this model for my next demo. Something that I find particularly important is:

“Q: Do I get material for my demo from the demo producer?
A: I wouldn't!! You never know how many other actors have used the same material or copy. Gather your own.”

As I have stated in another thread, I have gone down the wrong path with regards to allowing a recording engineer pick the spots for my demo. Now I have a demo that is almost identical to another VO talent that is listed at the same agency as I am. Thanks to DC Goode, we are fixing that.

Thanks for posting this and for taking the time to provide us with your awesome wisdom. I for one am eternally grateful that there are big name VO talent out there like yourself and Julie who are willing to offer a helping hand to those of us that have not quite reached stardom yet.

Keep ‘em coming,

Jon

[Bob Bergen]

OOPS!! I pushed post before I was ready!!! Sorry bout that!!

I want to qualify my advice with, it's only my opinion. Being a working voice actor in LA I don't necessarily "relate" to smaller markets or the logistics of many online sites.

That said, let me get this straight. There are sites out there that seek out voice talent with no intention to pay???????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

OK-this I don't get!!!!!! Why would ANYONE work for free????????? If you are good enough to get hired, you should get paid!!! Want experience? Take a workshop! You put value on what you have to offer, and they will pay you.

Think about it. If everyone decided to not participate in the freebie school of VO, all spots/jobs would pay a fee! If the buyers (can't call em buyers if they aren't paying!) don't have the talent, they can't advertise their products. They need us as much as we need them!!

The buyers, the agents, the ad execs, really don't care if you've had experience. They want to know are you good. They get that from your demo. You can have a VO resume of 1000 spots. But if your demo sucks, who cares your experience! It's VERY rare for anyone to ask for a VO resume. I put one on my website, but it's probably about 20% of my actual work experience. None of us really keep track. I think I've been asked for a VO resume less than 5 times in my career.

So if you are "giving the milk away for free" with your VO career to gain experience, and you can get that same experience in a workshop or workout group, which will prevent so called buyers from getting free voice work, obviously they'd have to pay for your voice services.

BUT-everyone has to be united on this. Sure, you can decide to not work for free. But if everyone else works for free, it defeats your strategy.

The truth is, voice123, and voicebank have made VO available to many many more people who would have never had a chance to compete. It's also taken away a good percentage of the union work, and really hurt the casting directors. What use to go to a handful of agents/actors is now available to thousands. They don't have to pay for casting directors as often because it's free to post, and with the 1000s of submissions they'll find the talent they need. It allows them to do many more nonunion spots, and it ups the competition to a point where it's getting harder and harder for people to make the kind of living they use to make even 10 years ago.

So now there are sites where actors are asked to work for free??? This is like taking non union a notch lower! I don't know, but my feeling is keep giving it away and you'll find eventually more and more people won't pay for your services because they know they can get it for free. Keep doing it non union and you'll find more and more people won't pay for union actors because they can get it non union.

This is a vicious cycle. And actors have got to look at the big picture, rather than the quick fix of a gig or opportunity. Problem is, the seal has been broken, and these new opportunities are out there.


SO-that's the reality of da biz. Another reality is, hey-this is just the way things are. We need to deal with it!!! It's easy to bitch and moan that "it ain't like the good ol days!" But how productive is that??!!

So, back to your questions. Should you remove your demo of the day??? I don't think so.

But that said, I wish there was a way to post "demos" or those sound bytes that are posted just to get people's 2 cents/advice in a way that the buyers didn't have access to them. I don't know how that would work. Maybe a password only page that was only given out to the actors who post?? But then, producers could also be actors. It would be hard to regulate.

My philosophy is don't show your wares till you are ready to sell. It's hard to get someone to purchase if they didn't like the taste the last time they sampled.

But then we go back to how the times they have a changed. Here people post daily. And they get work. How can you argue that?????????

But I still think if I were starting out, I would never post something for the masses to hear just for advice. Especially if I knew I wasn't at that competitive place in my career. If I wanted advice I think I'd email an MP3 to a teacher or fellow actor.

My first demo sucked!!!! It cost me 2 years of work because I wasn't ready for a demo, AND it wasn't well made. I sent it to EVERYONE!!!! And I spent months trying to get it back. It took me another 2 years before I was truly ready to make a proper demo. That previous demo had left a bad taste in the mouths of many buyers.

That was 25 years ago when the competition was a fraction of what it is today. So you really don't have the luxury of "that first demo" when pursuing. If you put it out there, it better be better than anyone else!!

So, am I confusing you?? Me, too. I just don't know the best answers with the new trends. I just know that if I myself would never want a demo or read out there if I wasn't ready.

But I went into this business not to "dabble and hope for the best." I wanted, and expected to BE the best! And I decided in my early days of training that I would never settle. I strived for the best, passing on smaller opportunities, because I wanted to associate myself with the big boys and major players.

I think it just all depends on what your ultimate goals are.

[Jon Morss]

Bob -
Man, what I would give to sit and chat with you all day on these topics as well as others in the VO business. I think you make some pretty valid points. As far as offering to perform VO for free, I personally have offered my voice to some online Radio Drama programs only because I like to and there is no money involved. If I felt someone in the process was making some dough on the project, then I would cease to do so or ask for a slice of the pie. However, lately I have been thinking in line with what you have stated “Why would ANYONE work for free????????? If you are good enough to get hired, you should get paid!!!”. Thus, I’m going to start focusing on honing my skills, work on the demos, and move towards being paid vs. not.

I think you have some very good comments regarding Unions in the ‘Going union: Worth it?’ thread. Personally I have had some bad experiences with the Iron Worker’s Union so the term Union has a bad ring in my ear. I don’t have too much knowledge with regards to SAG and AFTRA outside of some stuff I have read, but I suppose at some point and once I get deep into the VO business the Union thing will certainly pop up. Actually, the goal for me is to be good enough to actually be a member of SAG and AFTRA. Until then, I’ll work towards that goal.


Thanks again for your post.

I’ll step aside now and not take up as much space in this thread.

Jon

[Bob Bergen]

Hey Jon!

Take as much space as you'd like! My thread is your thread!!

And I hear ya about the unions. They can get in the way sometimes. But for the most part SAG/AFTRA get us good rates, residuals, health benefits, and pension. Can't get that with non union gigs!

As for the working for free, I myself will do this from time to time. Heck, what goes around comes around. But for a site to be nothing but freebies, that scares me a bit. There's a desperation that comes with being an actor. People need to know their value. Ask your Dr. to take out your gallbladder for free. Don't think so. But he might volunteer at the free clinic on his day off. There has to be balance. And the pro bono work has to be reasonable and fare.

;-)

[Jon Morss]

Bob -Thanks dude. I hear everything that you are saying. I've looked at RadioDaddy and had the same thought about why would someone offer voices there for free. I would image the folks asking for VO recordings on that site are using the recordings to make money. If they are making money on the recordings, then why shouldn’t the VO talent get a part of that as well. Also, I was on VoiceActingAlliance at one point, but there is a lot of illegal stuff going on there and I am surprised they are still around. in particular I know some of the Anime fan dumbs have been shutdown since once the Anime is licensed in the US the company with the license has the rights to it. I would highly suggest avoiding these sites, or any sites that are similar.

Hey, on the Demo side of things, I just stumbled on this Demo podcast by you (Bob B.) from voices.com. Seems like this is very relevant to the subject matter of this thread.
http://podcasts.voices.com/voiceover...pisode_03.html

Jon