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View Full Version : To DEMO or NOT TO DEMO?



Julie Williams
08-12-2007, 06:17 PM
Hi Guys,
I found this post on a forum... thought you might be interested in it.

It's a duck, right?
Posted by: "Mike Harrison"
Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:40 pm (PST)
It is partially scams such as these that make me sick of the many purveyors of voice-over 'smoke and mirrors.' Those calling themselves
'coaches' or 'trainers' who have, maybe, taken out a single book on
voice-over from their public library and skimmed through it just
enough to remember a few facts and statistics, and then hang out a
shingle and call themselves 'voice-over coaches." However, let me be
clear by stating that NOT ALL coaches fall into this category.

Those who teach that it takes only a couple of lessons before one is
ready to produce a demo (thereby theoretically leading the student to
believe they are legitimate contenders in this highly competitive
field) are, many times, the same ones that prod their inexperienced
students to build their own studio, thereby making it easier for them
to compete. This is clearly putting the cart before the horse, and
like buying a car with no gas tank.

When those with little experience (and, in many cases, even less
potential) vying to enter the field are enticed to pay several hundred
(or more) dollars, and are further manipulated into thinking that
joining the ranks of long established voice talent is as simple as
working the drive-thru window at the local fast food establishment,
they are the ones who wind up getting hurt, because they look for the
smaller, less-paying jobs to kick-start their career and wind up
getting burned by unscrupulous people and their scams.

If you're one of those 'Smoke-and-Mirrors'-type voice-over
instructors, save some oxygen for the rest of the planet, and keep
your miniscule experience (if, indeed, you have any) to yourself.

If you're one who's looking to start a career in voice-over, don't let
anyone tell you it's easy. First, it takes true passion: you have to
truly WANT this. Remember how hard you had to work for an 'A' in a
required school subject? Your passion is then followed by hard work,
practice, and listening to the competition to hear for yourself what
it marketable and what isn't. You must have some acting skills. At
least decent acting skills. You must be at least a good reader. You
must know how to come up with 'the backstory' and 'be in the moment.'
Maybe then it's time to make a demo that's marketable. Make no
mistake: Unmarketable demos that are sent to agents are thrown in the
trash without a single word. And THAT's the truth. And that also goes
for demos whose production values (music and sound effects) are
designed to over-shadow your voice. Those looking to hire voice talent
will be listening ONLY for vocal quality and are NOT fooled by
production value.

If and when you do reach the point where your demo is marketable (by
this time you've found a legitimate coach), and you do land an agent
(or more) and, ultimately, your first gig, you must know how to take
direction (translated: you will be expected to deliver what the
director/producer asks of you without questioning or throwing a
tantrum.) And there's more.

Yes, without a doubt, the work CAN be fun if and when you get the type
of jobs you want and like. But don't get picky too early in your
careeer or your phone will stop ringing, and you'll find it hard to
change that. ALWAYS remain a professional service provider. No
attitude, no ego. Be likeable.

But, above all, if you really want to pursue voice-over, be ready to
spend the time to learn and work to hone your skills. I grew up during
the 60s and 70s when the mantra was 'always question authority.' If
someone says they can get you started in this profession for just a
couple of hundred bucks, find out what makes them think they are
qualified to teach you. Pump them with questions about their
background, education, track record, etc. Ask to see diplomas and
certifications and, possibly, awards. Don't just throw your money away
on smoke and mirrors. Would you want to be operated on by someone who simply paid $1000 to become a surgeon? Think about it.

Sorry for what some might consider a 'rant.' I'm just so tired of
hearing about people being burned and having all their money taken by
pure, unadulterated phonies.

There. I feel much better now.


And here was my response to it:

MIke,
I hear what you're saying about producing demos too early... however, I don 't agree with all of it. I don' t like producing demos...as they take so much time, but I do them (only for those who take my workshop, if they elect a demo and I have time) and here's why,
No one can work without a demo. There is only so much improvement a talent can make without working... and with a demo they can join services like voices.com and accept whatever "bottom feeder" jobs come in...to get experience and a little income while learning. That said, I don't believe they should send beginner demos to agents... not till they're ready. But when they are ready, they can approach agents as an experienced professional.
Not every coach who is willing to produce a demo after one workshop is a scam artist. I did one for a talent who became full time within a couple of years... after taking the demo I produced and getting regular work at the Discovery Channel. Granted, she was a natural talent and a dream to direct. But by your standards, I was wrong to produce her demo! I disagree.

KaraEdwards
08-12-2007, 07:49 PM
Good article, and a good response Julie!

I think the most important things to look for in a coach is...if they are a voice talent...what are thier credits...who are their clients. Are they clients you would like to have someday?

Also, who have they taught in the past? Did those people move on to become successful in the business?

Don't be afraid to ask LOTS of questions!

Julie Williams
08-12-2007, 08:33 PM
The biggest think I look for...is why they teach.

Do they teach because they can't get work?
Or do they teach cos they got tired of people hounding them to teach? (guilty! Plus, I love teaching)

Michael Murphy
08-12-2007, 10:11 PM
Should I put any of my voice files on Voices.com before I get a professional demo? I Just feel like I have a very incomplete page there with no samples of my voice. I didn't want to make a fatal flaw.

KaraEdwards
08-12-2007, 11:17 PM
Julie will probably have the best answer for this question...but I think a voice sample is a must! What is holding you back? Do you have a place you can record auditions and audio...like a local or a home studio?

Demos are often a long work in progress. I add to mine and update it regularly. Just because you put something together now, doesn't mean you are stuck with it forever!

Good luck!

Jon Morss
08-12-2007, 11:23 PM
ulie,

Great post and I completely agree with your reply. I can really relate to this personally. I had taken pretty much every VO class I could find in the Sacramento area and then sought out help via email/phone and the internet. Once I felt I was ready and was encouraged to create a demo I sought out a local studio that was suggested to me by a VO coach and proceeded to make my first demo. It was okay but I still do not think it was the best I could do. One issue was that I was basically placed in a both, told to read some scripts (as well as my own for a character demo) and the engineer/producer/owner recorded a few takes with very little coaching. This unfortunately was not the best way to cut a demo but it was the best option I had at the time. If I knew then what I know now, I would certainly had paid to have a real coach/VO pro assist in putting the demo together.

Another issue I am now facing is that it appears the same engineer that helped me with my demo, used almost the same copy for another VO talent listed on Cast Images; our commercial demos actually start with the same copy. Is it standard procedures to use the same copy in basically the same order for multiple VO talents when creating demos? If so, how can one avoid this?


Thanks,

Jon

Michael Murphy
08-13-2007, 05:37 AM
No Kara nothing holding me back, I just have read posts about not posting a demo until I have one professionally made.

I had posted samples, but I took them down just because of reading about not posting one until professionally made. I don't have any professionally produced with any other sound then my voice though.


Mike

Colin Campbell
08-13-2007, 08:54 AM
I'd suggest finding your own scripts. They're everywhere. Magazine advertising for example. Also, the voice casting sites are good for being a "script factory." I've produced many demos for people over the last several months and recognize many of the scripts they chose as coming from Voice123 and Voices.com. My demos in fact are largely made up of the custom auditions I've done for the casting sites. A lot of the scrips are not so good but there are many "diamonds in the rough." If it's fun for you to read, it's a good script for you. I myself enjoy documentary copy so when a good one comes along, it eventually makes it to one of my demos.

KaraEdwards
08-13-2007, 08:59 AM
Mike,

Everyone is different, and will offer different advice. I could be wrong, but I think if you are just starting out- you should have some work on your site that showcases your talent. You can create your own demos (both of my demos were produced by me using past work- I've never had a demo professionally produced in 11 years...ok, that may ruffle a feather or two...) That said, I will be having my commercial demo tweaked by a professional in the near future. So yes, it is good to seek the pros with help for this.

I say find or create some great copy that is appropriate for your voice and record about :60 of copy (about 5-7 different scripts) and put something together. The folks on this board will be happy to critique and help you along the way. As you get work, you can save money for the big demo you will have produced. Plus, you will gain experience along the way.

I'm guessing no one will hire you without a voice sample. Good luck!

Grant Holmes
08-13-2007, 09:59 AM
I just had Colin Campbell (http://www.savvyvoices.com/) drag my newbie demos into this century. We're making a last change to my commercial one, then I'll post later in another topic.

Here's my take. Others will hear things in your voice/delivery that you won't hear. In my case Colin pretty much started cold with mine, maybe hearing one or two demos. He hasn't heard my voice for 48 years like I have.

He was able to pull out stuff that I ended up thinking, "That's me??"

So while you may be able to produce your own demos and they may sound great (Like Kara's), but I did one and it wasn't.

Colin Campbell
08-13-2007, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the pub and the link Grant! If you guys click on my name there you will see web site work from Grant himself that he whipped up for me. Good lookin' stuff.

Lee Gordon
08-13-2007, 11:09 AM
I got an e-mail from a local studio (I assume it was a bulk mailing) offering to put together demos for $150. While I am perfectly capable of assembling my own demo I decided to take him up on his offer for a couple of reasons. For one thing, it's a lot of work I didn't feel like doing.

More importantly, I wanted a different set of ears besides my own to give me a unique perspective. This guy's former boss had been after me for a number of years to update my demo to make it more useful for him to include in casting calls. By the time I finally got around to it, his health took a turn for the worse and he went out of business -- while he had some of my material in his possession. The new guy had apparently picked up the ball and retained most of the former studio's clients.

I figured that having this guy do my demo would put me directly onto his radar screen and, since he had a stake in my success, might cause him to promote me more actively to his big-time clients.

As it turns out, I think he did a pretty good job with my demos (Lee's Demo Page (http://home.comcast.net/~leegordonproductions/demopage.htm)) and he almost immediately called me to read for a nice AV project. I read the entire script for him but the client ended up going with a female voice, so I didn't get that gig, but on the other hand, the studio guy never charged me for doing the demo, so I guess it was a wash. However, I have subsequently been asked by him to audition for a number of big projects and I recently landed one of them, so the experience has more than paid off for me.

Julie Williams
08-13-2007, 02:22 PM
NIce, Lee, that you got a client out of that!

I wouldn't have hired someone who only charged $150 because I'd assume that he wouldn't know what he's doing. I don;'t mean technologically, but I mean in copy selection, directing you in the studio, assemblilng an industry acceptible product.

I'm glad you were happy with result!


Michael,
I think you need to have SOMETHING of a demo... even a newbie demo... before you expect any work. But definitely put something on voices.com... and bid low to get experience. In my opinion, the bottom feeder jobs are for people who need to get experience, and those who are desperate... so I always encourage seasoned talent to bid well... and leave low budget jobs for new talent. That way they can get paid experience without having to compete against those who have been doing this for years!

Colin Campbell
08-13-2007, 02:29 PM
Well, I've done many "inexpensive" demos for people but I never pretend to be a coach or choose copy. I just take what they give me and try to make it sound as good as it can. Some of the demos I've done for folks have gotten very good reviews. One in fact landed an LA agent for the person. Sorry... just cut a little on the $150 demo comment. I think I know what I am doing. Maybe not.

I honestly feel I give people just starting out with very little money and even less production skill a chance to get a demo.

Lee Gordon
08-13-2007, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't have hired someone who only charged $150 because I'd assume that he wouldn't know what he's doing. I don;'t mean technologically, but I mean in copy selection, directing you in the studio, assemblilng an industry acceptible product.

Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree with the point you are making but in this case I knew the guy and what he was capable of so I wasn't concerned.

Additionally, I didn't feel I needed him to coach me. I have enough experience in the business to know how a script needs to be read. I did, however, want to get his perspective as a potential recipient of my demo as to exactly what he (and by extension, anybody else in his position) is looking for in a demo.

Lee

Julie Williams
08-13-2007, 05:16 PM
Hey Colin,
I didn't mean it as an attack when I said that aobut $150 demo... I know you have assembled many demos for people dirt cheap and it's been very helpful to them. Your reputation preceeds you.

I do cut my own demos together and update them... and I am able to do the post prod on them...

but Lee, even after 30 years in biz... when I go to redo a demo (not just update a cut or two) I always hire someone really good to direct me... because their perspective is invaluable.
I'm considering flying to LA in the fall to have Mark Grau do a demo for me (promo demo) and I think that's $1400. But his expertise is worth it.

David J.
08-14-2007, 09:41 AM
Another word or two about demos. NEVER work with someone who insists on pulling the copy for you (that's one of the reasons I DIDN'T go with Marc Graue--because his assistant told me that he'd be pulling all the copy). You have NO idea how much that stuff is in circulation. What's more, your demo producer may have great production abilities, but you're the one who knows your instrument the best (usually, anyway). The guy who did my commercial reel is a great producer, but the copy he originally sent me was flaccid, at best. I did a google search for 2006 TV commercials or some such thing and found a site that had .mov files of just about every ad available. I sat at my computer, split the screen between the web page and MS Word, and transcribed a variety of ads I thought would work for my voice (and which would show my range). I edited each of those ads down to 8-seconds or so of coherent material, then went into the booth the following week. I was pleased with the result. I landed two out-of-town agents, and have scored a number of local gigs with the help of that demo; still need to land an agent in LA, though....

David J.
08-14-2007, 09:43 AM
Another word or two about demos. NEVER work with someone who insists on pulling the copy for you (that's one of the reasons I DIDN'T go with Marc Graue--because his assistant told me that he'd be pulling all the copy). You have NO idea how much that stuff is in circulation. What's more, your demo producer may have great production abilities, but you're the one who knows your instrument the best (usually, anyway). The guy who did my commercial reel is a great producer, but the copy he originally sent me was flaccid, at best. I did a google search for 2006 TV commercials or some such thing and found a site that had .mov files of just about every ad available. I sat at my computer, split the screen between the web page and MS Word, and transcribed a variety of ads I thought would work for my voice (and which would show my range). I edited each of those ads down to 8-seconds or so of coherent material, then went into the booth the following week. I was pleased with the result. I landed two out-of-town agents, and have scored a number of local gigs with the help of that demo; still need to land an agent in LA, though....

Jon Robbins
08-14-2007, 01:10 PM
I always hire someone really good to direct me... because their perspective is invaluable.

Yes! All good Actors need Good Directors!!! It allows you to focus on the performance and having someone objective and knowledgeable at the session is invaluable to help bring out the great reads that each of you have inside yourself. The DEMO I presently have is "homemade" and sounds like it and certainly I have not yet begun the process of shopping myself to Agents or major clients. I am still workin it, practicing my craft, discovering where my money voice is, taking lessons, reading books, practicing some more, being patient and listening to all the pros I can. Not ready yet for the big Demo but getting close. Thanks to all of you for your advice, your participation on this board and your point of view!