Wow, Alex just put Talkback in LOCKDOWN at V123

[AlexisAdair]

2:30 a.m. Central time zone, and somewhere between about 1:00 a.m and now, the Voice123 Talkback forum went into complete lockdown - the entire Talkback forum is locked, no new posts, no new replies, and at least one entire thread has been deleted without a trace.

Scary stuff, IMO. When a company starts going to extreme lengths to hide and eliminate criticism, well, that means it has something to hide!

Alexis

[mirrenlee]

I'm actually surprised he's kept it open this long. He probably should have closed the whole Forum once he introduced SmartCast! I notice that he has no Forum at all over at his Casting123. He can always say it's his site, and he has a choice whether or not he allows a Forum on V123.

Let's face it: no Forum, no criticism, no hassles. Anyone going to sign up as a new V123 member would have no clue that it would be difficult to actually get to the jobs advertised, or get matched to them, unless they had already seen anything on other boards around the Internet, and that wouldn't be as easy to do as it currently is to see it on the Forum.

The last month has been like watching a train wreck in slow motion, hasn't it? It's also been a really good example of how NOT to run your Customer Service section in any business.

Mirren

[Michael Murphy]

He posted that is is going to remain locked down. Just fyi!



Mike

[Vance Elderkin]

Yep. Alex's post there surprised me a little, as he basically told those who have been complaining on the forums to stick it. Circling the wagons?

[Amanda Geyer]

Preliminary discussions with customer service say that no refund is in my future, as things currently stand.

Needless to say, I am not happy.

[Amanda Geyer]

I wrote a very strongly-worded question to (them as a company) last night, and my husband, font of wisdom and restraint that he is, suggested I save it offline, give V123 a business day or two to get back to me about issuing my refund, and let the vitriol-fueled anger I was feeling yesterday over Torrenegra's actions cool to a dull simmer.

Upon re-reading the question, I agreed that yes, had I posted it, or sent it through their email contact, it was a threat of legal action.

I was aggressive, yesterday. I will be the first to say so. But if my aggression provoked such a spineless response as to delete the thread that contained my reasons for terminating my membership (which, honestly, was a strongly-worded statement of personal observation and opinion), then, y'know? I really want my money back. Although, I will admit to feeling kind of like that kid in Better Off Dead (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088794/), chasing John Cusak's character around, screaming, "I want my two dollars!"

I just realised I hadn't SUBMITted this... d'oh!

[K_Miller]

Amanda,

What happened to Alex's big "refunds will cheerfully be given" post back when this started? I believe others in the forum saved and printed it before he deleted it. If you wanna go to war, there's your weapon.....

[AlexisAdair]

Amanda, I have screenshots of the Refund promise from the V123 Team blog, as well as Juan's statement that there was "no deadline" for requesting the refund. The only tricky issue is could be your sign-up date. They state that anyone who joined prior to July 7 was eligible for the refund - when did you join?

Of course, if you joined after 7/7, you can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, reference their false advertising claims (there are many) and demand your refund.

Let me know if you want the screenshots and I think I'll need an e-mail address to send to, I don't think I can attach a file to a PM.

Alex should at least have given some warning about the lockdown prior to doing that. And if they're going to start arbitrarily deleting content, they need to state in the guidelines that content can be deleted for any reason. They've really crossed a line now, and if I had been at all on the fence about renewing, this action would have made my mind up.

Hopefully there will be a mass migration over here, where we can speak freely, but of course aVarice123 staffers won't be seeing our comments, so we'll have no hope of them making adjustments. Not that there really was before. :\

Sad, sad, sad.

Alexis

[Julie Williams]

Wow, I didn't know any of this.
What does lockdown mean? That you can't access it or you can't complain?

Feel free to post your opinions down on this forum under the sites... and be sure to evaluate the other sites there too, if you have experience with them.

[Colin Campbell]

Julie, forums can be locked so no further posts can be made to it. This looks like the same exact forum software here. The little circle next to the thread shows a padlock icon. Alex wrote a lengthy darogatory statement in the V123 TALKBACK section basically calling us negative people in the minority and "online all the time" then LOCKED the V123 TALKBACK section down. I've heard that he also deleted some content. Something really pissed him off.

[Amanda Geyer]

Thanks, Julie. I've got a screencap of the post which Alex said that refunds were going to be available, and the phrasing was such that implied that people who signed up post-SC implementation would be eligible for a full refund, but those who were members prior-to would have their refunds pro-rated.

At this time, I have not received an email from V123 Accounting saying that they are denying my request for a (pro-rated) refund, as my membership started July 8th.

[Jon Robbins]

Marketing to non-premium members the way V123 does could get them in trouble if they are not careful. 8)

[JoeActor]

Alex wrote a lengthy darogatory statement in the V123 TALKBACK section basically calling us negative people in the minority and "online all the time" then LOCKED the V123 TALKBACK section down. I've heard that he also deleted some content. Something really pissed him off.
Colin,

That "something" is commonly called "Logic".

Or it coulda been me.

He was on for a very brief time starting yesterday afternoon.
Said he'd re-assigned Juan to handle other marketing tasks and he would be addressing the forum concerns personally. Then things got ugly. He posted a screenshot of my profile as a sample of "keyword stuffing" (I'm so proud ;-)), deleted posts from some users when they had valid complaints, locked down forums. He did post a "catch-all" thread to address our concerns, but when I referred him to the "84% don't want SmartCast" survey, he just replied that it was too long to read and had too many topics in it. Then he locked that one down.

Pity. He had a good, simple idea with the old system and now it's a royal mess...

Yeah, it was probably me,
Joe J Thomas
www.JoeActor.com

[Colin Campbell]

Dammit Joe... you keyword stuffer! You know this isn't so hard. Just a simple filtering system is all he needs. Lots of check boxes on both sides that tend to keep the leads routed to the right people. I suppose some could claim they can do things they can't, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't.

[ChrisMezzolesta]

Something really pissed him off.

it was me....sorry... :roll:

[mirrenlee]

I gave up posting there any more as the pro Savvy clique refused to answer my points, and it just seemed like a waste of time. STILL no one who is for the new system will tell us exactly HOW we're wrong about it. It's just insane.

Joe, yes, you should feel very proud! :-) You made him react, and that's better than passive aggression, which is what he HAS been doing. It's like he's grabbed the lunch money of so many kids and now says we should thank him for taking that weight off our hands. :shock:

I missed his behavior that you're describing, and I don't see it now on the site. Is it somewhere I'm missing, or has he taken it back into Internet heaven and it's gone?

All I can say is thank the universe for TOS and Julie's forum.

Mirren

[Colin Campbell]

Let it be noted on this day that Alex is making a grave mistake and he will fail unless he has a reawakening. Like many businesses today, run by people who are not from the ranks of the craft itself.

[mirrenlee]

Said he'd re-assigned Juan to handle other marketing tasks

Oh, and BTW, that's something else that gets me. Juan is listed on the torrenegra.com site as a "co-founder". Are we really expected to believe that a "co-founder" (there are several on the site) allowed himsef to be "re-assigned"? Juan is NOT just the-poor-little-employee-doing-my-job. As a co-founder, if he doesn't have a say in what's going on, then he needs to renegotiate his position!

However, I do see how it's good business having people to take the heat out front, so that the "boss" can then come in and say he needs to handle things from now on in and aren't we privileged to have him do so (as I have seen written on the posts).

I wish he would use his power for good instead of well, you know ...

Mirren

[Colin Campbell]

Juan was a bit of an ***.

[mirrenlee]

Ah, yes, I agree with you there. But goodness me, what a Master at the "non answer"!!! Never before has one person uttered so much and said so little.

(I always felt his true calling was in a Monty Python sketch - like the ones with the dead parrot or the cheese shop. And for those that don't know those references, run, don't walk, to your nearest supply of old Monty Python sketches.)

Mirren

[Colin Campbell]

"Ah yes, the Norwegian Blue... Beautiful plumage don't you think?"

"The Plumage don't enter into it, he's dead."

"He's restin'"

I'm sure I have the quote wrong so here's what Google turned up. HAD ME IN TEARS...

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html

[mirrenlee]

Oh, Colin, thanks for that!

Unfortunately, I had this uncanny flashback to customer service at you know where. :shock:

"This system is dead."

"No, it isn't, it's just resting. You put too many Keywords in."

"How many is too many?"

"AND you answered too many auditions."

"I never ... how many is too many?"

"We're closin' for lunch."

At least they're giving us hours of amusement!

Mirren

[Colin Campbell]

Reminds me of the "Argument" skit. Wish I had the audio.

[mirrenlee]

My son is the Internet King for finding things. I'll put him onto it!

:D

[Colin Campbell]

Please do... "Dead Parrot" and the "Argument" thing are such therapy in a world gone mad!

It's such a microcosm of what is going on at 123.

Boy do I sound like an old man... maybe because I am?

[mirrenlee]

I've just checked Google and The Argument is everywhere, from the script to the video, in many different lengths! It's PERFECT for what's going on "over there". I see you've posted a link there already for The Dead Parrot. Will you do the same for The Argument? They've even got it on youtube! It's wonderful that a whole new generation can share this genius.

Makes me feel there IS sanity somewhere, sometimes.

I think we Baby Boomers just feel old a lot of the time because we've seen so many of these situations before. Life becomes like a tiring summer rerun. :roll:

[Colin Campbell]

Life becomes like a tiring summer rerun.

There is so much wisdom in that statement!

Here ya go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y05EmK66Gsk

...and the "Dead Parrott..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GipFyAsYK1M

Tales of 123 customer support.

[JoeActor]

I missed his behavior that you're describing, and I don't see it now on the site. Is it somewhere I'm missing, or has he taken it back into Internet heaven and it's gone?
All I can say is thank the universe for TOS and Julie's forum.
Mirren
Yeah, Alex deleted some posts and threads when he stormed off with his ball.

You may still be able to see a screenshot of my Keywords (no offense) here: http://voiceoversavvy.com/sutra39564.html&highlight=least+temporarily#39564

And just for reference, here's my "fresh after the fact" post:

Standard Operating Procedure.

When a government (or organization) is having problems with the "freedom" they've bestowed on their populace, they resort to several common tactics to regain control:

Censorship: Several threads and posts have been removed rather than address the issues raised.

Propaganda: SmartCast is popular, and what the people want. Don't believe it? Just read what the company tells you to read.

Ostrisizing: Implications are made that the users who complain are really the problem, and are ruining it for the rest.

Coercion: (but it's "nothing personal")

Shut down the presses: Talkback forum locked.

Banning "troublemakers": This hasn't happened here yet, but would not be surprising given the response thus far.

The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades,
Joe J Thomas
www.JoeActor.com
But I'm probably wrong - that's what they tell me anyway,
Joe J Thomas
www.JoeActor.com

[mirrenlee]

Oh, yeah, I saw all that. I guess I had a "senior moment" when I saw that he had posted your example because I thought at the time, "And the problem would be? Joe's right: he's just adapting to what's needed." Duh me. The whole problem, to me, is that any form whatsoever of LOGIC is like a red flag to the proverbial.

What I STILL don't get is why the "I'm for it (even though I'm having all the problems you guys are and haven't made any money since it was implemented)" camp refuse to articulate what it is EXACTLY they don't agree with in the "Get rid of it" camp.

One person in particular seems to flame everyone all the time - she's been rightfully accused of being humorless - and then admits she hasn't made any money with the new system, but she did before. WTF?

The whole thing really is like fighting a battle of wits with unarmed people, isn't it?

But please keep up your logical posts because I love reading them!

Mirren

[Julie Williams]

HI Guys,
I just saw these posts, and I have to say that I don't see Juan as a bad person. I think he is a person who works for voice123 and is doing his best. As the marketing person, I assume he's greatly responsible for all of the clients who come to voice123.

I think that Voice123 spent a fortune on what they hoped to be a great product improvement... which is bombing. I disagree with the premise behind their SmartCast (not all their changes, just Smartcast and the ratings) and how it rewards the fastest--rather than the best. And I feel it "controls" the marketplace. And the price increase accompanying such a drop in service is shocking.

But I don't think Juan deserves to be personally held responsible for those changes, or have his character attacked. Now, I don't know if he said something that made you feel that way about him... I didn't spend a lot of time on that forum, so I really didn't see interactions between him and others. But imagine the frustration he --and all of them--must feel at this point... unveiling their baby...and it's a flop... and everyone hates it... and people are talking on their forum about it. And they just don't want to let it go.

I know of at least a dozen people who did NOT sign up because of their changes. (I know because they emailed me about it when they saw all the badmouthing of it... and some of them were my students who I had told to sign up...and then had to contact and retract my recommendation because I no longer feel that it's in their best interest to sign up there.)

I feel sorry for Alex and Juan, and all of the people over there. I believe they did what they thought would be best for clients, and ultimately, talent. And they invested a lot into doing it. I believe they did the wrong thing...and their response to complaints has been poor customer service, but I don't think it's a reflection of their personal characters.

And even if they said some unkind things... I would hope that I'm not held accountable for everything I've said when I've felt like I was under attack!

One of my favorite bible verses is "Even a fool is thought wise if he is silent." I like it cos it speaks to me. Lord knows, I've done MY share of shooting off at the mouth, reacting out of emotion!

[Colin Campbell]

Julie, I apreciate your sentiments very much. I just want to say that we as a group were attacked as "the problem" and that is why we reacted as we did.

[Julie Williams]

Good point.
And I know that no one on the forum was considered as a customer with viable feedback. I could feel that. I just really feel sorry for Juan and Alex.
\
Don't get me wrong. I do agree with what you said about voice123. That's one of the reasons I started this forum... because I knew it would just be a matter of time before people couldnt' express their opinions about v123 on the v123 forum.

Users of this forum aren't my customers... just a community of VO talent who can help each other by communicating, posting tips, reviews, etc.

I hope I didn't come on too strong in my posting. I find your posts very valuable and wouldn't want you to stop. But I wanted to express my opinion too!

Thanks for hearing me!

[Colin Campbell]

Julie, you are an angel. I was just starting to post messages over there about how we could keep in touch as a group when the inevitable happens and then you started this forum. We are a pretty tight knit group of folks who have helped and supported each other through thick and thin. Many of us have started to "make it" through "that other forum" (Myself included.) We don't want to lose touch with each other and you have provided a place to gather.

I have met some of the finest, most selfless people I've ever met at the Savvy forum and I don't want to let that go.

Thank you for a "safe haven."

[Julie Williams]

:oops: I don't ever recall being referred to as an "angel!"

Soooo.. where is Scott Pollack? He is one who I've known for years...and I expected him to be among the first to jump ship! Yes, I know he's registered here...but I haven't seen him post anything lately!

[Colin Campbell]

:oops: I don't ever recall being referred to as an "angel!"

Soooo.. where is Scott Pollack? He is one who I've known for years...and I expected him to be among the first to jump ship! Yes, I know he's registered here...but I haven't seen him post anything lately!

Yes, and Robert Jadah. I was in email contact with Robert today and told him to register and he said he would. I'm looking forward to it. He is a very stable, creative and paternal influence. Always kind, eternally witty in the most sophisticated of ways. A valueable contribution always.

[mirrenlee]

Julie,

I also would like to thank you - again - for all the work you do for the voice-over Industry with everything from your eZine to this forum. I would also like to clarify about Juan. I have nothing personal against him - I did get frustrated with his non answers, but that's obviously a trait over there.

The main point I made, and would like to reiterate, is that Juan does NOT "work" for V123 - he is a co-founder, and as such, I would take that to mean he is also responsible for everything he says and everything that is going on. If you haven't done so, I suggest you visit www.torrenegra.com and see who's an employee and who's a "co-founder". It's interesting how Alex puts himself forward as the "boss" (someone said on the other forum how they were appreciative that the CEO of the company took time out from his busy duties to drop into the forum, but really, he's a "co-founder", too) and the one making all the decisions.

I just think, as with everything else, they should have more clarity about what they do and who does what.

It's not personal - and I understand how frustrated they must be at the way their baby has turned out. But they absolutely refuse to acknowledge that it's not working overall. I think the ratings system is absolutely offensive, and the latest statement from them over there that's been posted by Alexis continues to inflame that particular issue.

However, it's not going to change, and those of us who don't like it will just have to use another site. However, the Forum is something special, and I sure hope people come over here instead. The help, support and encouragement are so wonderful.

So thanks again for providing this.

Mirren

[Colin Campbell]

Amen... Mirren!

[Julie Williams]

Wow, Mirren,
I didn't even know that Juan was co-founder! I knew he was head of marketing. As such, I'd say he did a great job.

Sadly, it seems that we voiced our disappointment to the RIGHT ears, but they turned out to be deaf ears. Oh well.

The good thing is... I now spend more time marketing myself --the time I used to spend auditioning at v123. Cos while I rarely get good leads from them now...when I do, I don't get there first. I've still gotten a handful of jobs from them since the change...but I've gotten so much MORE work on my own.

It would probably be worth the money to renew...but frankly, I don't know that it would be worth the frustration.

Ssssshhhhh.....I've got an idea, though... and I"m going to try it. I won't tell anyone yet. but if it works... I'll share privately. It'll be a few weeks before I'll know.

[mirrenlee]

Yes, I know - the whole who's-in-charge hierarchy seems to be a big secret over there.

Okay, I'll wait to hear about your secret - but I sure wish it would involve starting an online voice casting system! :wink:

I'm not renewing, either, because not only do I think the system is appalling, but I also don't think they get enough work in. I figured out from the Summary they send out, since they show us both what we were suited for as well as what we were not, that they're getting in about 20 jobs in total a day. For about what - close to 4,000 subscribers?! That doesn't seem like worthwhile odds to me. I don't know what the situation is like at "TOS", but I'm going to check out the stats before subscribing. An online casting service sure seems like a good idea for the future of the Industry, but someone has to get it right, for both the Seekers AND the Talent. Otherwise, you're right - it's better to take the time to market ourselves personally.

Mirren

[Lee Gordon]

I think that Voice123 spent a fortune on what they hoped to be a great product improvement... which is bombing. I disagree with the premise behind their SmartCast (not all their changes, just Smartcast and the ratings) and how it rewards the fastest--rather than the best. And I feel it "controls" the marketplace. And the price increase accompanying such a drop in service is shocking.

I know this is not necessarily the popular sentiment among the membership here (which thus far seems to consist largely of Voice123 "escapees") but I would say that characterizing Voice123 or SmartCast as "bombing" is highly speculative and by no means based upon any impirical facts but, rather, is an assumption drawn from the strongly negative comments of a small but very vocal group. Voice123 has well over a thousand members and the bulk of the protests are coming from a couple of dozen dissatisfied custimers. I am not in any way suggesting that only those people who are speaking out are the ones who are upset. All I'm saying is that to declare that the service is bombing is a leap I am not yet prepared to take.

I also believe that, no matter how you feel about SmartCast, it no more rewards the fastest over the best than the previous system did. Under the pre-SmartCast system you practically had to be sitting at your computer the moment the notification of a job arrived in your e-mail or risk being stuck so far back in the queue that your audition would never be heard. I don't know that SmartCast is any sort of improvement, but the previous system was definitely first-come-first-served.

I totally agree that a $100 price increase being introduced simultaneously with a major, potentially controversial, change in the process was ill advised.

[bobbin beam]

I totally agree that a $100 price increase being introduced simultaneously with a major, potentially controversial, change in the process was ill advised.

Hear here!

[Julie Williams]

You know... that price increase would not have bothered me at all if it came with an increase in service! I've made so much money off that site... it would be worth TWICE what they're asking if

1) They stopped limiting us from submitting.
I'm busy in studio..and can't just spend all day racing to submit an audition.

2) They allowed us to submit unlimited auditions without penalizing us.

It's not the money that bothers me. It's the frustration on a daily basis! I get leads I don't want (The $50 leads keep coming) and the ones I DO want are closed before I get to them.

The GOOD thing is, I'm getting more personal invitations to audition than ever before... probably about 2-3 a day. I'm not sure why that's increased. I don't know if something to do with the system did that, or not.